Moje Refleksje po BAER-ze

[Jaga]

<QUOTE author="Jaga"><s>

</s>
I nie wszystkie urodzone z tych 4 miotów doczekały badania...

</QUOTE>
Statystyka jest niewiarygodna ( - minus 7 urodzonych szczeniąt ) bo mogła wyjść lepiej lub gorzej

[MadMan]

<QUOTE author="Buteo"><s>

</s>no tak,to jeszcze raz:
era teriera - 4
buteo - 10
dum spiro - 8
gotrek - 5
+ 2 dorosle suki to chyba daje 29

</QUOTE>
Ok, czyli te ,,brakująca'' dziesiątka to bulle Buteo,niestety nie śledze aż tak dokładnie forum żeby złapać w lot o jakie szczeniaki chodziło w cytacie,moja wina
Jednak tym bardziej jeżeli ta 10 słyszy prawidłowo dziwi wynik badania.
W kontekście tego że w przeszłości (o ile mnie pamięć nie myli) były przypadki że ci sami lekarze stwierdzili częściową głuchotę u egzemplarzy które po powtórnym badaniu (u innych specjalistów) okazały się zdrowe nasuwa się wniosek że coś tu jest nie tak.
Można by domniemywać że trafiły się wyjątkowo zdrowe egzemplarze ale też o tyle dziwne że psy nie mają aż tak zbieżnego pochodzenia aby wyjaśniało to fakt że wyniki tej grupy aż tak podważają opisanie statystyki.
Nie poważe się na wniosek że statystyki są naciągane ale ewidentnie coś tu nie gra.
Próba była dosyć pokaźna więc gdzie te 62-63 % półgłuchych
Podstawowe pytania: jaki odsetek bulterierów został zbadany przez ową panią doktor,ile z tych badań było potwierdzonych przez innych specjalistów,jaki procent badań tych lekarzy się potwierdza a jaki nie...
Wtedy będzie więcej wiadomo a propos tego czy statystyki nie są zawyżone a badania miarodajne i prawidłowo przeprowadzone.

[Karmacoma]

Powtorze sie z Sauronowego...

Po lekturze statystyk w USA, Wlk Brytanii i ostatnich wiesci z Francji jakos ciezko mi uwierzyc w wynik 62-63 % pani Niedzielskiej. Po badaniach w Luizjanie z ponad 600 przebadanych bulli, gluchych i polgluchych buli bylo 11%. W tych ponad 600 mniej wiecej pol na pol biale i kolory i tu prawie 20% bialych dotknietych gluchota przy 1,3% u kolorow. Anglicy chyba mowia o okolo 20% dotknietych gluchota a we Francji mowi sie o 20 - 25 %. Polacy jak zwykle maja lepiej bo 60%. Tylko nie jestem jakos o tym przekonana, mozna chociazby wyliczyc % z tej niewielkiej ilosci bulli, ktora byla u nas przebadana i ktorych znamy wyniki.

Wiec albo p. Niedzielska sie z choinki urwala albo ktos niedokladnie zinterpretowal to co ona mowi.

[McDalena]

<QUOTE author="karmacoma"><s>

</s>Wiec albo Niedzielska sie z choinki urwala albo ktos niedokladnie zinterpretowal to co ona mowi.

</QUOTE>
Znając historię działalności państwa Niedzielskich, głęboko zastanowiłabym się nad każdym ich słowem, w kwestii wyników zwłaszcza

[HoRacy]

<QUOTE author="karmacoma"><s>

</s>Powtorze sie z Sauronowego...
Po lekturze statystyk w USA, Wlk Brytanii i ostatnich wiesci z Francji jakos ciezko mi uwierzyc w wynik 62-63 % pani Niedzielskiej. Po badaniach w Luizjanie z ponad 600 przebadanych bulli, gluchych i polgluchych buli bylo 11%. W tych ponad 600 mniej wiecej pol na pol biale i kolory i tu prawie 20% bialych dotknietych gluchota przy 1,3% u kolorow. Anglicy chyba mowia o okolo 20% dotknietych gluchota a we Francji mowi sie o 20 - 25 %. Polacy jak zwykle maja lepiej bo 60%. Tylko nie jestem jakos o tym przekonana, mozna chociazby wyliczyc % z tej niewielkiej ilosci bulli, ktora byla u nas przebadana i ktorych znamy wyniki.
Wiec albo p. Niedzielska sie z choinki urwala albo ktos niedokladnie zinterpretowal to co ona mowi.

</QUOTE>
a ja tu już widzę logikę jeśli chodzi o % to Polacy zawsze wolą większe

[zig hauer]

<QUOTE author="era-teriera"><s>

</s>W dniach 25-26 lipca 2009 w Bochni odbyło się zoorganizowane przez hodowców, którym nieobojętny jest przyszły los rasy, badanie słuchu dla 29 bulterierów (4 mioty + 2 dorosłe bule). W trakcie badania wiadomo, ze prowadzi się również rzeczowe dyskusje z lekarzem (była to pani dr Niedzielska z asystentem). I co się okazało????
Ano, że w świetle jej statystyk, które zresztą są opublikowane i były przedstawione na paru konferencjach - odsetek półgłuchych zbadanych przez nią buli wynosi 62-63%
Stąd rodzi się refleksja:
gdzie te półgłuchoty są????
Moim zdaniem: mają się dobrze- są rozmnażane lub kryją ile wlezie.
Dopóki badanie słuchu nie stanie się w Polsce badaniem obowiązkowym kwalifikującym do hodowli oprócz innych czynników, to walka z wiatrakami będzie trwała wciąż.
Dlatego apeluje do nabywców przyszłych szczeniąt: <B><s></s>PYTAJCIE O BADANIA SŁUCHU ZARÓWNO RODZICÓW SZCZENIĄT JAK I SAMYCH SZCZENIĄT!!! </B>
Do hodowców, którzy badali i wyszedł im wynik niepomyślny i o nim cisza, nie apeluje o nic bo sa to ludzie cyniczni, dwulicowi i zakłamani- a od takich osób trzymam się jak najdalej.
Ot tyle przemyśleń.

</QUOTE>
<B><s></s>Nie pozostaje mi nic innego jak skopiować to samo z Saurona
</B>
<B><s></s>Zig Hauer: </B>
Co prawda na TROPHY nie byłem ale "Yearbooka 07/08" mam a w nim artykuł AHT z 2003r źródło chyba wiarygodne (statystyka) całości nie cytuję.
"Głuchota wrodzona u bullterierów
Od czasu wprowadzenia Programu Badania Głuchoty u Bullterierów w roku 1998, 382 bullterierów zostało poddanych badaniu słuchu przez Fundację Zdrowia Zwierząt. Z czegu u 32 stwierdzono głuchotę na oba uszy a u 34 tylko na jedno ucho. Nie wygląda to na dużą liczbę, ale stanowi to 17,3% całości, co oznacza, że ok. 1 na 6 bulterrierów poddanych badaniu cierpiał na wrodzoną głuchotę. To nadal nie brzmi zbyt groźnie, ale gdy zdamy sobie sprawę, że występowanie głuchoty w populacji psów wynosi 0,25%, lub 1 na 400 osobników, zaczyna to wyglądać trochę bardziej poważnie."
<B><s></s>Jagna vel Era Teriera : </B>
Hohoho- ja też mam i się nie chwalę
Nawet skany mogę porobić i wstawić
Ale nadal te prawie 18% ma sie nijak do liczb wymienionych przez lek. wet. Niedzielską.
Jednakże po kilku "świeżych" wydarzeniach, nie jest ona juz dla mnie wiarygodnym źródłem informacji.
był jeszcze jeden post mojego autorstwa ale jakoś dziwnym zbiegiem okoliczności 2 razy pisany 2 razy znikał wiec napiszę go jeszcze raz z pamięci:
<B><s></s>Zig Hauer: </B>
Od chwalenia się na forum to są inni. Mieć a umieć skorzystać (Yearbook 2007/08 ) to jest daleko od hohoho!!! Zamiast powoływać się na upadłe autorytety trzeba było od razu powołać się na ten artykuł. Od kilku lat wróbelki ćwierkały że wyniki z Wrocławia są mocno kontrowersyjne ale nie do mnie należy wybór Twoich autorytetów.
I tym sposobem mamy załatwione dwie sprawy liczb i autorytetu. Co do liczb różnica jest znacząca co do autorytetu nie wytrzymał próby czasu - ledwie pół roku

[era-teriera]

Ależ czuję się zaczepiana

Nr tel. do mnie na stronie hodowli.

Natomiast nie widzę sensu dłużej ciągnąć tych wywodów i przepychanek- nic nowego to nie wniesie do tematu IMHO.

Pozdrawiam lodowato ze snieżnego Krakowa

Jagna

p.s. I nie pół roku, ale kilka lat (od badania BAER Auli).

[Karmacoma]

<QUOTE author="era-teriera"><s>

</s>
Dopóki badanie słuchu nie stanie się w Polsce badaniem obowiązkowym kwalifikującym do hodowli oprócz innych czynników, to walka z wiatrakami będzie trwała wciąż.
Dlatego apeluje do nabywców przyszłych szczeniąt: <B><s></s>PYTAJCIE O BADANIA SŁUCHU ZARÓWNO RODZICÓW SZCZENIĄT JAK I SAMYCH SZCZENIĄT!!! </B>

</QUOTE>
Apelować to sobie możemy tylko gdzie mamy badać?

[Ola]

W Olsztynie, dr Pomianowski bada, wg. jego statystyk głuchota wrodzona występuje u 11% bulterierów.

[Jaga]

Z Opola/Bytomia do Olsztyna to przecież tylko rzut beretem

[Ola]

Ja z Olsztyna jechałam po Bastię do Bytomia to jak komuś zależy przyjedzie na BAER

Poza tym dr Pomianowski zdaję się bada we Wrocławiu jakoś niedługo, Ann_ki pisała gdzieś o tym.

[Jaga]

<QUOTE author="Ola"><s>

</s>Ja z Olsztyna jechałam po Bastię do Bytomia to jak komuś zależy przyjedzie na BAER

</QUOTE>
To była podróż w jedną stronę z 1 szczylem
Ja sobie nie wyobrażam takiej podróży wte i nazad np. z Rzeszowa i do tego ew. 6/8 szczyli
Mimi i Buteo kiedyś gdzieś pisali na temat łatwego i przyjemnego podróżowania ze szczylami na BAER

[SisiKLIKA]

<QUOTE author="Ola"><s>

</s>Ja z Olsztyna jechałam po Bastię do Bytomia to jak komuś zależy przyjedzie na BAER
Poza tym dr Pomianowski zdaję się bada we Wrocławiu jakoś niedługo, Ann_ki pisała gdzieś o tym.

</QUOTE>
Dr Pomianowski będzie badał ale w Katowicach w Marcu

[era-teriera]

<QUOTE author="karmacoma"><s>

</s><QUOTE author="era-teriera"><s>

</s>
Dopóki badanie słuchu nie stanie się w Polsce badaniem obowiązkowym kwalifikującym do hodowli oprócz innych czynników, to walka z wiatrakami będzie trwała wciąż.
Dlatego apeluje do nabywców przyszłych szczeniąt: <B><s></s>PYTAJCIE O BADANIA SŁUCHU ZARÓWNO RODZICÓW SZCZENIĄT JAK I SAMYCH SZCZENIĄT!!! </B>

</QUOTE>
Apelować to sobie możemy tylko gdzie mamy badać?

</QUOTE>
Tak w miom odczuciu apelować można i należy ponieważ rozmnażając swoją sukę:
- to ja świadomie na świat powołuję szczeniaki,
- to ja dobieram rodziców przyszłych szczeniąt,
- to ja JESTEM ODPOWIEDZIALNA.
W świetle ostatnich wydarzeń jak to napisałam na szarym fo, jeden ośrodek w Polsce stał się niewiarygodny, drugi znajduje się w Olsztynie, podróżowanie po UE z małymi (czyt. niezaszczepionymi na wściekliznę, co jest niezgodne z prawem) szczylami jest idiotyzmem.
Mamy bardzo skomplikowaną sytuację, ale nie oznacza to , że należy olać, nie pisać, nie gadać, nie apelować, żeby czasem Ci nowi nabywcy szczyli nie zadawali niewygodnych pytań: czy słuch zbadany?
Na chwile obecną wystarczy mieć zbadany z pozytywnym wynikiem u rodziców szczyli, a odnośnie samych małych- przecież można wszystko ładnie zawrzeć w umowie. I nie chodzi tu tylko li i wyłącznie o zwrot kasy w przypadku +/-, a przede wszystkim o możliwość odsunięcia takiego szczyla z dalszej hodowli, poprzez zakaz jego rozmnażania. Juz słyszę te głosy- to niezgodne z przepisami ZK, badanie BAER nie jest obowiązkowe itp................... tratatata ja na to. Dla chcącego i odpowiedzialnego hodowcy to nic trudnego. Umowa kupna-sprzedaży jest umową cywilno-prawną i to co sobie w niej zawrzemy (np. w przypadku stwierdzenia połgłuchoty zakz sterylizacja- pod groźbą kary pieniężnej np 5-o krotnej wartości szczeniaka). I jeżeli obydwie strony podpiszą tego typu umowę- ma ona moc prawną (konsultowałam to z radcą prawnym) z możliwością wyegzekwowania tego zapisu.
Ja wiem, że wielu hodowcom to nie w smak, że nabywcy maja coraz większą świadomość, coraz więcej pytań zadawali itp. Tym bardziej, że ostatnio urodziło się sporo półgłuchych ładnych egzemplarzy- które nadal są nieujawnione (bo przecież to nieobowiązkowe badanie- prawie fanaberia), są z sukcesami wystawiane (po co?????? WYSTAWA daje uprawnienia do HODOWLI!!), więc niewiarygodność kliniki we Wrocławiu tylko uprościła pewne rzeczy.....chciałbym/chciałabym badać, ale nie ma jak, a tak w ogóle to zawracanie gitary, bo półgłuchy to tak jak zdrowy itp.
Tak fenotypowo zdrowy, ale genotypowo takie zwierze jest takim samym zagrożeniem dla rasy jak OSOBNIK GŁUCHY- zainteresowanych odsyłam do lektury na mojej stronie internetowej(zakładka zdrowie - głuchota) .
Zdania od lat nie zmieniam, jestem za badaniami, jak będę miała kolejny miot i nadal będzie tylko możliwość zbadania szczyli w Olsztynie to idiotką nie jestem i nie pojadę tam z buldzieciakami (jeżeli nie uda się zorganizować badania w tym czasie w okolicach Krakowa).
Ale przyszłym właścicielom szczeniaków i przede wszystkim sobie zagwarantuję komfort psychiczny (a sobie również etyczny) i zamieszczę stosowne paragrafy w umowie kupna-sprzedaży.
Może taka głupia i naiwna jestem, ale tak już jest i nic tego nie zmieni.
I nadal będę się śmiała z górnolotnych marketingowych zapewnień zamieszczanych na co poniektórych stronach internetowych hodowli, ze zwierzaki są zdrowe itp, gdy hodowca w tym kierunku nie przeprowadził ANI PÓŁ BADANIA aby to sprawdzić i potwierdzić.
I tyle ode mnie.
Pozdrawiam naiwnie
Jagna

[Jaga]

<QUOTE author="era-teriera"><s>

</s> <B><s></s>1/ </B> Dla chcącego i odpowiedzialnego hodowcy to nic trudnego. Umowa kupna-sprzedaży jest umową cywilno-prawną i to co sobie w niej zawrzemy (np. w przypadku stwierdzenia połgłuchoty zakz sterylizacja- pod groźbą kary pieniężnej np 5-o krotnej wartości szczeniaka). I jeżeli obydwie strony podpiszą tego typu umowę- ma ona moc prawną (konsultowałam to z radcą prawnym) z możliwością wyegzekwowania tego zapisu.
<B><s></s>2/ </B> niewiarygodność kliniki we Wrocławiu tylko uprościła pewne rzeczy.....

</QUOTE>
<B><s></s>1/ </B> Już widzę te przepychanki na sali sądowej i egzekwowanie zapisów w umowie
<B><s></s>2/ </B> Czyli posiadacze wszystkich wyników badania BAER we Wrocławiu mają sobie teraz nimi podetrzeć